Badass Is The New Black (Season 3) Episode #32 Ethical Copywriting And Sales Psychology For Customer Engagement With Stephanie White

ethical copywriting fake scarcity fake urgency passion sales marketing sales psychology Mar 14, 2022
BNB 32 Stephanie White | Ethical Copywriting

If you want to connect with your customers, you need to know how to engage with them effectively. If your only focus is to sell to your customers regardless of how you present your product or service, you're not doing your company any good. In this episode, Krissy Chin discusses powerful insights about ethical copywriting and sales psychology with Stephanie White. Stephanie is the founder of By The Way Creative, a copywriting agency for creative coaches and service-based businesswomen. She shares the processes in her business that are a game-changer for success, giving us a unique perspective that would let us connect with customers. Instead of simply convincing your target audience to acquire the product or service you're offering, Stephanie talks about her entrepreneurial journey, for example. Let's dive into transforming your social media bio to attract ideal clients and learn to communicate with them the right way!


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Ethical Copywriting And Sales Psychology For Customer Engagement With Stephanie White

In this episode, we have a special guest, Stephanie, bringing the heat with her tips on copywriting. She shares her cringe-worthy what not to do in your copy because it's sure to leave the audience with a bitter taste in their mouth if they catch you doing these things. Don't let it happen. She also dives deep into sales psychology, which will leave you with everything that you need to make sure that you convert like a rockstar on your next launch.

Before we dive in deep into copywriting, I also want to let you know if you're like me, if you started your business just winging it, you have no formal business education, you see others around you hitting milestones that you want to achieve and you want the fastest way to generate success but you don't really know what to do or how to get there then I want to invite you to my Concept To Cash Masterclass.

Here I'm going to teach you the four steps that every successful entrepreneur has implemented into their business and not just any entrepreneur. I'm talking about the entrepreneur that loves what they do. They take Fridays off, they have time for the things that they love outside of their business, they're the entrepreneurs that work less and enjoy and earn more. To attend this free masterclass, head over to and I'll see you inside.


Let's welcome Stephanie White to the show. She's a word nerd, a dog mum and Founder of By The Way Creative. A copywriting agency for creative coaches and service-based businesswomen. Welcome. I'm so excited to have you on the show. How are you?

I'm very well. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

I'm excited to talk. We're going to talk about copy. If you don't know what copy is, maybe you would do a better job explaining. I would just say, "It's the words that you write on things."

It's not far wrong, to be honest. It's any of the words that you use in your marketing to promote your business or to explain what it is that you do.

I love marketing. I love sales and writing, typing, speaking it and all of the things but I wouldn't call myself a copy expert guru. I don't live and breathe it every day like you do. That's why I wanted to bring you on so that you could give us your knowledge beyond even what I know to steer my readers in the right direction.

Most people, when they get started just like I was writing my own copy, I wasn't necessarily hiring a copywriter right off the bat. I'm excited for you to give them some nuggets. We're going to talk about sales psychology. We're going to touch on ethical copywriting. That's super important and maybe if we get to it, a little storytelling. Let's dive in so the audience can get to know your background. Have you grown up and always been a writer and then was like, "I'm going to be a copywriter," or were you doing something totally different and then came into this? Let's know your story.

I describe myself as being lucky because I'm not multitalented. I just have one thing that I'm good at and that's writing. I started at school. I did my exams early for English. I went to college and did all of my A levels in English. I did those early and then went to university and I did my Bachelor's degree in English as well.

When you've got an English degree, certainly in the UK, you're limited on what you can do. It's quite a niche in some ways and broad in others. Marketing, journalism or teaching, you're stuck there unless you go ahead and do a law conversion level. I tried all three of those and I loved all of them but I decided that marketing was where I wanted to be. I worked in corporate for a year before jumping out and starting my own business at 23.

How long have you been doing this?

You're allowed to change your mind. You’re allowed to identify what’s not working for you. 

It'll be five years in 2022.

You just took the strength that you have in writing and then let it take you where you want it to go.

It started as me and my bedroom/dining table with just a laptop and a few years later, there's seven of us, which is crazy to me. It started as a freelance gig. Now, it’s a multi-six-figure company, which is awesome and very fun.

Let's dive in a little bit to the very beginning when starting because there are readers that are reading that have launched a course or a membership or have been in their business for a while but then there's also these newer people who are just getting started and it's not super easy at the beginning for most people. I don't know what your journey was like in the beginning but what do you have to say to that person who's getting started in their entrepreneurial journey?

The number one thing I'd say is consumed on social media with caution when you're first starting out because you will see loads of stuff about like overnight successes or this person had this idea and then some investor bought it and now they're a multimillionaire and it happened in a span of a year. Those are the minority. The majority are not sharing their story because it's just not that sexy.

It doesn't mean they don't exist. They are out there. I'm transparent with people that it took three years for me to make six figures. In my first year in business, I didn't even match my corporate salary. Be cautious about what you're taking in and try to follow people that consistently inspire you but don't give you comparisonitis. That would be my biggest tip when you're first starting out. Choose who to follow.

You can't compare your beginning to someone else's middle. I hear that all the time. Even if I think about my journey and talk about when I launched GROworkspace, we reached six figures in four months. We made $1 million in 20 months and that seems fast but then when I think about it and these are the details that I forget to say most of the time and it got brought up in the interview, I was like, "I am like the five-year overnight success." It was five years where I was building up my network doing other things and starting businesses.

I started a wellness course with Claire first. When I launched that, I had 28 people attend our first webinar and twelve people jump in. I don't even remember that the number is small. I didn't make very much money then I was like, "I'm not super passionate about this. I'm heavy in my network marketing business. I just want to focus there," and then when GROworkspace idea came about, I was like, "Can you come to do this with me?"

There were failed businesses and hardships along the way. I almost forget about that part of my journey and sharing that because that's the important part. I just saw on the Kajabi group, someone was like, "Does anyone have a story that wasn't like an overnight success that they could share? They're not selling templates or something, B2B that you can give me some inspiration because I'm struggling over here.”

There were a lot of different people on there. I teach crocheting and have made seven figures but it took me a lot of years but they were super inspired. I love that you shared that and were transparent about that. I didn't make six figures until my third year but now you're multi-six figures and you've got a team of seven. That in and of itself is super inspiring so thank you.

It's about looking for those stories as well because they do exist. It's just the ones that are more easily available to us are the overnight stuff. I love what you said there about changing your mind. People don't realize they can do that and because you were an entrepreneur with one idea, it doesn't mean that you fail and you're no longer an entrepreneur.


You still are. You can go ahead and have a crack at it in a different way. The best example and I've completely forgotten her name but she was high up at Tinder, the dating app. She got dismissed because she brought up some equality issue in the app that women were being treated fairly either in the company or through the app.

Now she's one of the richest women in the world because she founded Bumble. Her story is amazing. You're allowed to change your mind and to go, "This isn't working." I'm going to have another crack at this in a different way and try again. Often, people don't always remember to share that part because they're like, "It's not what I'm doing now. It's not relevant," but that doesn't mean that those stories don't exist behind the overnight successes.

I did a bunch of different things. I've had a million ideas, I've started businesses and ended businesses, all of the above then you're like, "I've always been good at writing. I just followed that path and this is what I'm doing." I love that you're showcasing. You can start something and continue with it, putting in the hard work and going with it and you don't have to switch to something else. Stick with what you're good at.

It just took me a while to figure out what I was good at. Before we dive into copywriting, I would love for you to share one system or process like now you have a team of seven. It's so super amazing multi-six-figure business. What's one system or process that you have implemented into the business that was a game-changer for you?

It's one system but it could include many, which is the catch-all. It’s cheeky but I’m going with it. If you don't like it, lump it out to somebody else. If you don't like it, you're not good at it or it doesn't make you excited, just don't do it. I share with any of the team members that come and work for me like, "If you don't want to do this, you can say no because if I don't want to do it, I'm going to say no." I've spent hundreds of thousands of pounds on accountants, lawyers, coaches, designers, web developers, anything that I'm like, "This isn't my wheelhouse. I'm not going to do it because there's no point. I'm not going to make a good job with that and I'm not going to be happy.”

The important thing is you started this business to be happy. If you become unhappy in your business, you will not have success in your business and you will not be attached to any of the outcomes that are happening from all of your hard work. If you don't do the hard work, you don't care anymore. It's a real foundational thing but it has this huge ripple effect throughout your business if you unintentionally make yourself unhappy in your business.

That's something that I teach in my Build a Blissful Business course. It's like Build a Blissful Business like you want something I have. That's likely why you left or trying to leave or doing something else to feel fulfilled and passionate so I 100% agree. The second you can lump it, pass it along. Have someone else do it so you get to stay in your zone of genius. I love what you said about telling your team, "If you don't like it, tell me. You're allowed to say no," and that is super important. That's how you get lifers in your business.

Are you trying to leave your job? Why don't you like it? You're doing something that you don't love. If you can get people who are doing something that they're good at and enjoy doing it, they're not going to want to leave. If you show them your appreciation and all of that, they won't want to leave. That's something that I try and do too. Find the peace in your business that they will enjoy doing. Sometimes that means you have not many full-time people and you have a lot of people doing little things but it makes a world of difference in your business. 

I never going to touch unethical running of your business is something that's super important to ask and that's why we try hard to ask each other and check-in with each other. Are you okay with what you're doing? Do you not like elements of this job? If it's one of the girls that write copy alongside me and they're like, "I don't like this client or I don't think I can do the best possible job for this client. I'd rather work on that one," then we have an open discussion about it because, at the end of the day, happy team members mean better service for your clients. It's the same thing as doing something that makes you unhappy. Forcing people within your team to do stuff that they don't want to do is exactly the same as you’re doing it. The knock-on effect means less success in your business, less happy clients, less turnover, etc.

I was interviewing someone else for a new contractor spot in GROworkspace. After we met and I got to hear from her, I explained more about what she was doing. I was like, "Before we move on, are you still interested in what this entails?" She was like, "Definitely." I was like, "Let's not waste any time if you're not interested or it's something you're not going to like doing." If you're on the other end too or you are providing a service to someone and you are not liking it, be open and honest. Tell me about ethical copywriting because I have an idea of what you're talking about. I know what ethics are. I don't know what copywriting is but I want to know all of the information in between.

Contravening the ethics of copy is a big thing in cyberspace and the coaching industry than anywhere else. We used to see it on billboards and stuff but we probably didn't recognize it. It's transitioned into digital marketing and into the way we speak in the online space really sneakily without us even noticing that it's happening.

The sad fact is the awesome coaches out there that are advocating for these tactics for people to use through copy and I always say to people, "If you're good at writing copy, it's like you got a magic wand." Use it wisely. Don't go around encouraging people to do stuff that's bad for them or bad for the environment.

Don't go around encouraging people to do stuff that's bad for them. An ethical copy incites people to do things that would benefit them.

An ethical copy is where this starts. It's inciting people to do things through not-so-savory means. I've got some examples to run you guys through. As soon as I say them, I reckon readers are going to be like, "I've seen that," and it's going to turn them off now. Fake scarcity is a big one. That's basically saying in your stories, “There are only two spots left for this coaching program.” Realistically, there are five. You're just trying to get people to jump in so you pretend that there's less space.

Someone could be counting and someone could end up in your program being like, "This isn't full. She said she was only taking twenty people. There's 25 in here." Fake scarcity is one. If there are a limited number of spaces left, shout from the rooftops, which just don't lie. It’s the same thing for fake urgency. I see this one a lot and I've seen it in copy templates as well, which is saying, “Fake urgency, I am never running this program again. This is your last chance to join this program. There are five days left. I'm never running it again."

When you know full well you're going to run it again. I've seen this one loads of times. I've spotted it in a couple of coaches as well where I'm like, "You said you were never selling that again but here we are." That's another one. People will spot it. Tying in a little bit with that overnight success is this story of debt being a rite of passage to entrepreneurship. It's fine if that is your story. If you did come from a place of massive debt and you book yourself out that like, "Kudos to you. You're amazing." I often see it in a way that when it's a high-ticket program. It's suggesting if you were to go into debt to buy this high-ticket program, that's cool because debt makes you a better entrepreneur. Let's not go messing with people's finances. It's not cool.

No one is going to like that one. That one made me feel icky inside.

It's a bad one and it happens less but I still see it. The one that I literally see all the time everywhere and people don't even realize they're doing it is mindset manipulation. We're very tuned into mindset these days. We understand how it works. A lot of us do NLP and things like that. Mindset manipulation is suggesting to somebody that if they don't invest in their business or they don't spend this amount of money, they just can't be that committed to their business. This is the only thing that's going to get you from where you are to where you want to be. It's super dangerous. We don't want to push people into joining programs and services. We want good, fit people to join something because they feel they'll benefit. Do you think you've ever seen that?

I'm not clear as day probably for me seeing that and you don't want to do it. You want the right people in there. If you do that with someone, they're not going to be happy. They're probably not going to generate success because they were forced into it unknowingly and they're going to be either a problem, client or student.

They're just not going to have a good time and it's not going to lead to a good review so letting people do their thing and as the coach is doing that, that's not an abundant mindset. That's like, "I need more clients. I have to do whatever I have to do to get their money because I have to make it." That's not the mindset that you want to have. Long-term, I don't think that person will be very successful in their business.

It's not healthy for them and it's not healthy for the people that they're encouraging to work with them. There are two more that I've written down for you. Financial deceit. This one is tied in with the overnight success thing. When people talk about a thicker without clarifying where that came from. They made $1 million but they spent $750,000 on ads and marketing.

That's deceitful talking about the figures in your business that are turnover but you make it sound like profit without expressively saying that. The classic that I've seen so many times is if you've had like 8.whatever per month then saying that you have a six-figure business. That one I've seen a lot and I'm like, "You have a six-figure business when the turnover for the year says zero on the end."

That made me think of when I first launched Build a Blissful Business. I was one core signup away from 10,000. I was 9,800 something and I was so bummed because I was like, "I guess they had a five-figure launch." I was mad and now I just say like, "I almost had a 10,000 launch. I was one person away." I'm the person that I can't say it if it didn't happen. I was bummed because it sounds more powerful like a 5,000 launch.

I absolutely love the honesty that you had in that like I was one person away. When you get an A grade in an essay and you were two months away from an A star or an A-plus, you will tell people. You should tell people I got an A but not only just A like, “I got a nearly A star.” It's important.

I didn't skim by like a four-figure one but it wasn't 1,000. It was 9,600 and whatever. I was going to say something about the one you said before. What was the example that you said before? I made $1 million in twenty months, now, at the time, our profit margin was 80% so you’d be super transparent and we were spending 20%. It’s like, "Big thumbs up." When people do say that like, "I've made $1 million or $10 million." I always think in my head, "What was your profit margin?"


I always think that like, "I don't care how much revenue." Even though I'll say sometimes multi-seven figures but I always want to know what's your profit margin on your business. If someone opens a restaurant, I was dumbfounded when I heard this. I can't remember exactly but it's like, "If you're making 10% or 16% profit on your restaurant business, it's such a tiny percent. Why would anyone open a restaurant?" I'm over here making it like, "Depending on the month, 60% to 80% profit margin." Why would you even do that? Most businesses do make a small percentage, 10%, 15%, 20% and because they have all of these costs, especially brick and mortar.

The biggest thing that we don't have to pay for is premises and that's a huge expenditure and product-based businesses as well. They spend those in R&D, suppliers, logistics and all these other things in digital businesses. We do need to be honest about what the profit margin is because people could be thinking anything. You need to be super transparent about it. This is a quick one and I'm hoping that lots of your audience will already be aware of this. Prolific in the coaching industry is appropriation. Have you talked about appropriation on the show before or had the phrase?

I don't think so. I always say that when people say like, "Have you heard about the ten branding things?" I'm like, "No," and then they start saying it like, "I just didn't know."

Appropriation is borrowing phraseology or colloquialisms, words and phrasing from a culture that is not yours. It came to the forefront when Black Lives Matter was being massively talked about in the online space. This hugely came up during this period of time. Essentially, there are a lot of words and phrases that we use in our day-to-day life especially online that we don't realize are borrowed/stolen from other cultures like black female entrepreneur culture or gay culture.

All the ethnicities that are not white and it's mainly like white coaches and white service providers that aren't using this language and using phraseology. It's just something to watch out for. There are tons of resources. I'll let you go do your own research on it and find some great black creators that you can find more about this from. I would encourage you to go and look up an appropriation glossary and check some of your copy and assure that you aren't using these phrases as well. It's one of those things that you, "Got to get done. You have to do it."

You guys know more about ethics with your copywriting especially if you're going to be doing your copywriting at first. It’s super important and then if you're hiring a copywriter. They might not have read to this show or be following Stephanie for all this information. If you're getting copy back, read through it. Make sure they're not doing these things. I suppose that's something you could certainly ask your copywriter that you're hiring like, "Do you know much about ethical copywriting." They’ll be like, “ahh.” You could be like, "Read this blog." Pass it along so you could do some vetting beforehand but certainly be reading through your copy, you could even make some notes and check these off to make sure they’re not doing this. Am I going to ever do this course again or do this launch again? Let’s make sure we’ll never do it again.

Let's dive into sales psychology. I love psychology. I was going to be a Psychology Major at first in my college career and I was bombing the tests. I was like, "This sucks. That's not for me." I ended up going into nursing. Why I loved nursing was because it was Anatomy and Physiology and I just had to memorize a bunch of things.

I was getting 100% on these Anatomy tests because I would just study and memorize. I would study Psychology in my Psychology course. I would study way more than my roommate and best friend growing up. We were in the same class and she would never study. We would take the test and she would ace it. I would be B.

I was like, "This just does not feel good. This is not my industry," but I am super fascinated by psychology, how people think and why they do what they do. I'm super excited to learn more from you, whether you're going to talk about incorporating it into your sales. I think a lot of people think sales is gross, yucky, sleazy and slimy because they think that people are trying to manipulate other people into buying stuff. If you've ever thought that in your head like, "Yes. I've thought that about sales," and if you love sales and you're like, "This is amazing. We can use psychology for good," tell us. I'm going to let you dive into the topic and share whatever you want to share about sales psychology.

I can say two great things about people that feel sales is icky, yucky and it feels gross. The first thing is if you are writing sales copy or you're looking at other people's sales copy to get tips and stuff and you're trying to then do it yourself and it feels gross is because you are not writing to your true personality type. Your personality type but also your ideal client personality type. The likelihood is they are the same because you've gone through your journey experience.

It’s the things that you've experienced that have enabled you to coach, create or build courses for someone who was like you 2, 5 or 10 years ago. That's why you do what you do because you're sharing your knowledge with someone who could be helped by the things that you've gone through. For that reason, you are probably sold to in exactly the same way that your ideal client is sold to. What do you buy? What do you look at when you all buying that thing? Are you the person that scrolls for a sales page and you're like, "I don't care what you say. The person that's selling these things. What is the testimonial?"

I want to see what your clients say. Do you buy like that? Are you the person that scrolls down to the list of everything that's included when it has the little brackets next to it saying like, "This template is $97. This course is such and such dollars. Add it all together and you're getting the whole thing for $239.” Are you that person? Are you sold three metrics or numbers through monetary value? Are you the person that scrolls straight to the About section on someone's website? Who are you? Tell me your life story. I can't buy from you unless I know what your dog, grandma, stepsister are called.

Entrepreneurs don’t mess with people's finances to have sales and income.

How do you buy, think about those things and putting extra emphasis on those within your copy? There's a good and very old model called the Process Communication Model. It has six personality types under it. You can spot yourself probably in one of those six personality types and then use that to gear your sales copy. Get any copy or producing where you're trying to incite some action towards that particular person. Start with you then start looking outwardly at the things like the Process Communication Model. That's one thing.

Focus on you but then should we also be mindful that there are other people who are going to be looking at our website, so we need to make sure that we are being thorough. We have an About section in case we get that person that's like, "I must know who she is. Her dogs, sisters, mom, aunts, stepbrothers before." Are you saying this like, "It won't matter as much,” and we'll attract people like us but then we'll get the stragglers and that are like, "Okay."

Include all elements of selling pain points, results, focus metrics, testimonials or one-liners. Include all of that stuff, knowing particularly how your audience is sold to. It’s going to help you externally with your website and sales page. If you know the testimonials are important to your audience and that's how they buy, when you're doing a launch, your Instagram captions, emails and things are going to be much more testimonial-focused.

It’s the same thing for the order of your sales page, what do they need to see first because there are lots of templates, formulas and stuff for how a sales page should go. That's to make sure that you include all of the things but they don't necessarily need to be in that order. An accountant's audience is not going to be sold the same way as my audience because my audience is very creative. An accountant's audience is analytical. They're going to be sold in different ways. It's more about where you put your focus, not the only thing you do.

I know someone out there is thinking about this because I've thought it before as well. When you're just starting and you don't feel like you have testimonials but you know like, "That's how I buy and I know I need them." What's your recommendation for people that don't feel like they have testimonials yet? Let's say they've never launched this program or this course.

Firstly, if you've ever sold anything before or you do one-to-one coaching, for example, but this is your first time launching a group program, you can still use a testimonial from your one-to-one coaching on your group program page. If you want, you can put like, "Angela, one-to-one client," but if she's mentioning in her testimonials something that is included in this group program, which is coaching and coaching, that's going to be a crossover, you can definitely do that.

You can also use beta testers. That's a good way of getting some good testimonials. You reach out to people that you're like, "You're really the ideal person for this. I'd like to offer it to you for free in return for a video testimonial and honest thoughts on what you think about this." The other thing is screenshots of messages that you've had.

If you've had that micro transmitter to somebody, maybe on a power hour, through Instagram DMS or you've helped someone with something, ask that permission if you can use the screenshot. You can use those on your sales page as well or in any of your sales collateral and you can state what it was you guys were talking about. If you explain to people, this is a new program. They're going to know that these testimonials are all from this program but they're about you as a person so you still have the right to use them.

I was hoping that you were going to say that because that's definitely what I did when I first launched Build a Blissful Business. I was like, "No one is gone through this but I had worked one-on-one with people. We had worked on their messaging, branding, finding their ideal clients and so it was just more of how I helped them and serve them, which still applied to the course.” It was super helpful. I didn't have a ton. I think I have two but it's better than nothing.

When I launched my course, I had never run a course before so I used feedback from clients about how much easier I'd made their life by writing their copy. I use that as my testimonials because it's social proof still that I'm really good at what I do. It just wasn't necessarily testimonials for the course. Now we have testimonials for the course. I swap those out and replace them.

Another one that I use, I did a workshop but we were talking about transforming your social media bio to attract more of your ideal client. That's talked about and taught in the course as well. Some will had a great like, "Transform my bio and I had six new followers that I looked at and seemed like ideal clients." I was able to grab that message.

I got permission from her because I wanted a picture to go with it because I love pictures with testimonials. I want to see the other person's face. It makes me feel like that's one thing maybe that we could talk about. An ethical copywriting is don't make up a testimonial to make yourself look good like no one said it. It's a fictitious person.

I didn't even think about that because I wouldn't even think about doing that but I'm adding it to my list.


That’s why I love pictures. I'm like, "This is a real person." You could have just made that up. I got permission but used it not for the course but for a free workshop that I did. That taught the same thing that I was teaching in the course later on.

It’s the same as freebies as well that people have an amazing response for freebies. You can do that too. The other thing we like talking about in your DIY copy is that you can make sure you don't mess up and don't stumble across when you're starting out by yourself. One of the things that I see a lot of newbie people doing is they focus real hardcore on the value of the thing that they're selling. It’s like, “It's got five calls, six hours of support, Q&A, feedback and all these things.”

They focus really hard on all of the stuff that's included in the course of the program. That is great. Those things are important. No one actually gives a monkey about any of that stuff. They're like, "Cool," but what are those cools going to do for me? How is six hours of time with you going to change my life? The thing I tell people when I do like training on this is, “Nearly everything we do, everything we sell in the digital space, every service that you buy, every coaching experience that you have, particularly this industry is designed in the end to make you more money.”

It might make you more money because it makes you less stressed, you have more energy, you can put more time into your business and you make more money, etc. At the end of the day, pretty much everybody wants more money. The thing that's different and you need to find out about your ideal client is what they would do with it.

When you're talking about the results of your program, it's not just the emotions because yes, emotions sell. That's true. It's important but we all have to pay the bills and we all have to live. What is that person doing with the money that you're going to enable them to make? Do they have children? If they have children, the likelihood is they're going to provide things for their kids, great experiences, maybe things that they didn't have.

If they love traveling and they're a digital nomad, they're going to spend that money on plane tickets, going to somewhere they've never been before and buying a camera so they can take pictures of that place. Looking at your audience like, “What are they going to do with the money that you are going to enable them to make?” That's super important to talk about in your copy because it makes it so specific. The sales copy you've written is just for them and you're going to create this lovely connection. It's not manipulation. It's literally telling them you can have the things that you want in life. It's motivation over manipulation.

If you have been reading the show, you know I say, "If you speak to everyone, you speak to no one." I know even I've fallen victim to how scary it is to talk to one very specific person, your ideal client. You’re like, “I'm leaving out all these people,” but what it does is they're going to think you're speaking right to them and that's what's going to get them to make that decision and be like, "I'm in."

The last private client I signed, we're literally like the same person. It's because I've literally just been basically speaking to myself out there and not holding back and so she's like, "We're the same. I connect with you so much,” and I'm loving working with her. Don't be afraid to get super specific on who your person is and speak to them. Someone who may not like travel might still sign up with you, even though you buy your thing or you talked about buying a plane ticket they're like, "I don't fly anywhere." It's not going to not have them sign up.

It doesn't have a negative effect but it has a massively positive back for the right person that it does resonate with.

I want to go back to the statement when you talked about Q&A and monthly training. That's great because people do want to know what's included but it's not going to get them to know if they want it and need it. I have a personal example and I learned more about this when I was doing my low-ticket offer or my scalable show system.

I'm giving you a system so that you can just show up record and be done for your show. The very first thing that I was highlighting was like, “I'm giving you the system,” and the person that was working with it are like, “They don't care about that.” They want to know what the system is going to do for them.

If you don't like it or it doesn't make you excited, don't do it.

It's highlighting more of, "I'm going to give you what you need to be able to just show up record and be done." They don't need to know what's the system. Once, they're like, "That's what I want." They'll purchase and then inside and you'd be like, "In order to get that, you need to apply this system.” That's where you can talk more about what it is to help them get to that point.

I wanted to just go back to give you a real-life example of what that could look like because I see it all the time. It was X amount of hours of training and focus on what that training and transformation that's going to give them. For the people that do need to know the numbers, make sure they're going to be connecting with you. I have that on there but definitely the transformation.

In my years of doing this, I think I had two people asked me what the average word count is or something that I'm writing. They're like, "What's the average word count of a sales page?" I'm like, "Why do you care?" It's going to be what it's going to be as I'm producing it. I'm not going to say to you, "It's going to be 3,000 words," because there could be 3,000 words of rubbish. That is not important at all. Those finite details of things, they're just not important. They're part of the picture but what you write under the sales page of works, that's more important.

My question is what is your percentage of conversions on the copy that you write if you were to know that metrics?

That's a much more important thing.

It’s like you’re writing a book. I did learn that as soon as you hit a certain number of words, the book ends up being bigger because of the binding or printing. It has to be bounded in a different way so your book looks way bigger. Authors are like, "Make sure you're hitting X amount of word count," but we're not writing a book here. No one will read your sales page if you're writing a book. I'm sure you have more on sales and psychology but thoughts on I've seen long sales pages and I don't read them all. I'm the person who I look at the bolded, the bullets, the standout things and then I scroll down to see what's included, how much it is and what the testimonials are saying. That's how I buy.

Get all the important stuff in first and all of that stuff in straight away. If you want to carry on, you want to write a long sales page and you think your audience is the person that's going to read a very long sales page, go for it. 9 times out of 10, 9 cases out of 10 you don't need a long sales page. You need to make sure that the quality of what’s on there is incredible. It's speaking specifically to this ideal client. It’s getting the value of the product program service across and it's got your personality injected into it, which is one of my next heads.

That's the more important thing than having a huge long sales page. I had clients say before like, "I'm used to having long sales pages.” I'm like, "Try this one. Please, just do it my way because I promise you it's not about the length. That one wasn't converting and it's nothing to do with the length. Is everything to do with have you got the quality in the copy? Give it a whirl and compare the conversion rates fully.”

Let's talk about personality.

It's like a branding tip but it works so well in sales and people disregard it all the time. We talk about know, like and trust factor. Everyone knows know, like and trust factor. It's about being you and showing up online and be yourself. It's about that but what it’s really about is becoming memorable. We trust people that we've seen multiple times that we remember because if you've committed somebody to memory, there was something about them that turned you on, resonated with you and made you want to be around that person. Those things are brand elements, motifs, whatever you want to call them. That things about you in your real life that you inject into your copy and then you bring up again and again to the point where someone saw that thing in a picture or in the shop, they would think about you straight away. It's powerful in sales copy and we disregard it all the time.

It’s you and copy.

Me and copy, exactly. Everyone knows Stephanie White (no sugar). My course is called Wake Up And Smell The Copy. I have all of the things on my website like hot and frothy brown voice. Templates, they'll be bringing out and cool copy pods. It's everywhere but it makes people remember me and resonate with what I say hot and frothy sales copy.


If you have that stuff in your life and day-to-day, it doesn't mean you need to share a really intimate personal detail but it could be your favorite drink, always talk about your pets on Stories, or make jokes about where you're from all the time. Anything like that can start tying your business and making your sales copy funny, full of fun, full of jokes or little clever plays on words. If you can start putting that together, your sales copy goes from great sales copy that's converting to great sales copy that they can't ever forget, then they want to tell people about you. They want to share something funny that you put on your page and it becomes this whole thing. You build a brand that people want to buy from rather than just having a one-off service or product that has very good sales copy around it.

What are my things? I've just been talking about the lake house a lot out and the boat but I do know that connect with me and they're like, "We have a boat too."

Doesn't it tie in with your message Blissful Business?

Yeah. 100%.

That's the important thing that copy ties in with my message. It’s very energetic, quick, fast and funny. That's my vibe, so what is there in your life that you could include in your copy that not only resonates with your ideal client but also puts across this image of who you are and what you're like.

These are good tips. I hope you’re taking notes. Any more little sales psychology tips that you want to throw at us before we wrap things up?

Asking questions throughout your sales copy. You're not dictating to somebody. You're not just telling them what you're offering them. You're asking them questions. I used to have cubicle fever and wish that I could be sitting on a beach, sipping a pina colada, making money in my bikini in Bali but you already know what I mean.

Ask questions. Make the person feel that they are part of your community, they're part of you, and you understand them. The other one is using the power of three. This is a really common sales psychology thing but people forget it or they don't know how they could use it in the actual sales copy. All brains go 1, 2, 3 money. We joke in England, particularly that when you go to the shop, you can only remember to get bread, milk and eggs.

You can't remember anything else. She always comes home without toilet paper. We have this joke that's because our brains can attach to things that come in threes. When you're talking about your program and you want it to be memorable, just focus on three amazing results. The business course to help you scale to six figures, build a team that you love and have every Friday off. Using three things all the time, wherever you can.

I literally just popped into my head as I'm working on revamping my website on the front page. There's one section where I'm highlighting the Work With Me offerings. I have three but soon I'm going to have four. They're side-by-side so if we have four, that's going to mess it up. Should we stack them? I'm like, "No, we need to stick with three things and maybe there's a button to see all the ways like click here and see more and then it's another page with like the different things.

I hope you guys are getting any good tips for your business as I am for mine. This has been absolutely amazing. I don't think we have time to dive into storytelling but we touched on it a little bit earlier. Don't leave out the vulnerable pieces of your story even if you're like me and you forget those pieces, try and think back like, "Has it always been rainbows and butterflies?" What are the things that I can share that are real-life about me so that people can connect with me better?

We talked about that a little bit. I don't want people to leave without knowing how to find you, connect with you and get more from you like your social media. I follow you there. You put out great tips on your social posts. I get your emails because I signed up for the freebie that you have or the offering that you have for us, which was amazing. Now, I open up every one of your emails and read them because you provide such good content in there. How could you not? You're a copywriter.

If you're good at writing copy, you've got a magic wand. Use it wisely. 

Thank you very much. It makes me super happy. I would love for your community to come and join me to come and pick up some more copy tips and let me know how they're finding the stuff on this show, they have implemented themselves. It's @ByTheWayCreative on Instagram. That's where you will find us.

When you head over to Instagram, if you head to the link in my bio, you will see a link for 38 Caption Prompts and CTA's. It's a PDF download. It looks pretty. More importantly if you are struggling with telling your story on Instagram, getting out there and sharing some of the stuff that we've talked about or pieces of your history, the results that you have provided for clients, I really urge you to go and have a look at these. It's not a download with millions of caption prompts. It's succinct, they're split into specific categories and they're all effective. You're not going to get overwhelmed with tons of capture prompts, 38 of them but I promise you, they will make life on Instagram much more palatable.

You go download it. Don't wait. Grab it. Stephanie, thank you for coming on here hanging out with us. I've hired Stephanie for copywriting. I'm super excited to continue to work with her and the work that she gave me was phenomenal. I was like, "I just have to bring you on the show to chat so everyone else can get your amazing advice and tips." Thank you. I appreciate you for being here, spending the time and sharing all of your knowledge with us.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been amazing.

Remember, channel your inner badass and take imperfect action every single day.

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About Stephanie White

Being a creative and doing ALL THE THINGS is really hard...

Are you playing to your strengths? If you're an incredible graphic designer, a photographic genius or a wedding whizz-kid... why are you forcing yourself to write stuff you hate?

That's where content writers come in! I get to know you, your business - but more importantly - your clients... then I communicate with them as if I was a extra-wordy version of you.

What else do I do?
- Eat a dictionary for breakfast.
- Talk about my unnatural love affair with alliteration and assonance.
- Force feed you facts about the etymology of words.
- Get a coffee buzz on and spin 1000000 words of marketing gold-dust.

If I sound like the kind of nerd you need in your life, I'll have an oat-milk-latte (1 shot) and 30 minutes of your time. Let's take you from copy novice to content queen/king.

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